Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Okay. So welcome to another episode of the Time Intelligence Podcast. I think this is going to be an interesting one.

Succession planning is the topic we're talking about today, and it's something honestly. It comes up in

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): so many of the conversations we have with our clients, and with prospective clients, particularly in those engineering and manufacturing sectors where the topic of a skills shortage has been. I mean, it feels like it's been topical forever. Our guest today is Courtney Abraham currently at Current Lighting, but with a really interesting background. Courtney, from a business perspective moved into HR, has experienced a company like a Deco and is here now. Courtney, welcome. I've introduced you for everybody. But is there anything you want to add, or tell everyone a bit about yourself before we dive in.

Courtney: Thanks, Dave, and thanks for having me. I think I am the product of working with great people and great mentors, and them seeing something in me that I didn't necessarily see yet, and so just the opportunities to work in different fields, and me, Andrew. My way through my career has led me to a job I love, and while as a CHRO it is every day is an opportunity, but also a challenge. I never stop learning, and I'm just thrilled to share any insight. But I've learned over the years to help others.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yeah, love it. The first question we always ask everybody is kind of.

I think we've all got an odd or just a plain, strange experience from either being interviewed or conducting an interview. We always like to get just to kick us off a bit of bit of a story from our guests. So let's dive straight into that.

Courtney: I take such pride right in my craft, and what I do. I get to work with people, and I was in an interview process, so I was the interviewee, and this is probably Gosh!

Courtney: Maybe 12 ish years ago in my career, and I made it through the interview team and the business leaders, and my very last in interview was with the CEO, and in the course of the conversation, he’s a lovely individual.

Courtney: But he says to me within the first 4 min of conversation. I was interviewing for an SVP of talent management right? So, just setting the scene. He says to me. So, listen. I really don't believe in this talent management thing.

And I thought, oh, oh. right right away! He said that, and it threw me back on my heels, and the consultant in me came out because I wanted to dive into that right and really explore that. But I thought, if I take this job I know I've got a huge hurdle in order to jump through in order to help him believe, help him value.

And the other side of me said. Well, if I take this job, will I ever be successful? Right? So it was such an interesting statement the individual made, and I'm happy to report. I did take the job.

And I did get him to the other side, so that he saw a real value in it and that it impacts your bottom line. It impacts your balance statement doing right by people and having a thorough plan. Everything we're about to talk about today is why we why we focus on the craft, and why he is the CEO should have said, oh, my gosh! This is the most important thing in the world, right? Not I don't believe in this thing. So yeah, it's through me.

Courtney: You know there was tricks in it, but it was also a bit of a deliberate tactic to knock you off your feet a little bit first.

Courtney: Yeah, i'd be there's something of the honesty to it. Yeah, that's not what you want to hear and I was stood there with my eyes open. You like to know what you're walking into, and so, eyes wide open. I knew I was gonna have to use every consulting skill and every proof point to show the value and the execution of an action, and how it translated into business speak. Why, it made him more successful.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yeah, no, no, love it. So like you say it moves us on neatly and to sort of topic for the day, and I've got the questions in front of me to keep us on track, because I don't know about you, but I want for attention, so they're more than for me than you, I think.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Let's go into the for the first question. We talked about this when we when we first discussed the episode. But for you, why do you feel it's so important to have that process in place when it comes to talent management for one, but mainly retention generally? The idea of succession planning, you know people will leave. Retention is great, but you can't hold on to everybody forever. So

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): we talk a lot about this in recruitment, so of course, you know retention and recruitment. So from your perspective. Why is having a process in place? Actions more than words?

Courtney: Oh, gosh! Hugely important, and I am a bit of a process geek: right? So I think it's essential to have a variety of factors depending on where we are in our organizations. We have, you know, the tail end of people's careers, and they're retiring and leaving. And so let me just start there

We're in manufacturing right? So, we have engineers, and we have individuals, product managers and product marketing who have come through their specialty, and they're now at the tail end of their career, where they're looking to leave.

And depending on what's happened in the last 10 years have we been able to hire? And have we, side by side developed individuals in order to not have a huge gap and create continuity of business.

Courtney: The idea of workforce planning equally important. But these folks are now saying in droves, hey? I would like to stay 6 more months, or in 12 months I'm going to retire, and it's the tribal knowledge that we're losing.

Courtney: So it's not just the ability to execute a set of activities. It's also how that product come about? How did we used to do it? What happened with that supplier? Why does it not work the way that we intended? All of that learning, and that knowledge is so critical and important. And if we don't have a process in place to side by side, build talent so that we can create that continuity and not create big mistakes. I think that's the piece from our perspective. We owe it to our organizations because we can plan for it right?

Courtney: So, when we know there's an exit date, we as individuals, we have to side by side, and sometimes it means investing. It means bringing somebody into the organization, or allowing somebody to stretch for a period of time. And maybe that's an addition Comp, that you weren't planning on from a budget perspective that is very, very important, and it's planful. And so we need to take the investment.

Courtney: The other piece is not so planful, right? Succession planning. It seems to be an activity we all go through right from an HR and talent management perspective. But it needs to go beyond the process or the exercise, if you will. So by and large I think we all follow a similar process this year. I will say I did something slightly differently in years past. We've done a formal talent review where we have gone through, and we've talked about everybody right? Where are they in their career? What are their strengths? What are their opportunities? How do we develop them in order to grow into next level roles or lateral positions, and to use that Rockwell analogy. In today's day and age. You don't go hierarchically anywhere you crisscross

Courtney: It's based on season of life, desire business, need. And so we switched it and we started succession planning. I said Ok, let’s not actually start with talent reviews.

Let's start with people in role.

Courtney: Who's next up? If they were to win the lottery tomorrow, what would we do? And if they said, I'm off... what's the replacement plan? What is the immediate keep the lights on, and what would you do which lends into beautiful conversations. I think I'd split my organization. Well, why would you split your organization and let's start talking about those people?

Courtney: So, when you get into that level of detail, it's, then all right, maybe we're a little bit more planful. And 2 years from now who might be ready? And then who are some of your emerging people that might be ready in the future?

Courtney: What do we do? Right? So, in order to be planful and to get those emerging leaders ready, what's that development set of activities? And what do we need to plan for, so that we continue to invest in them? We groom them.

And they're ready for that next level job. It may not be that exact role that we have in place, but it shows to the person that we are investing in their career. We care about them. It shows to the business that we want great business continuity, and we don't want any disruptions in service.

Courtney: And it's really this. So, what I would say this all the time. It has to go beyond the exercise to be actionable, and if we only put it on paper it’s a check the box. But if we don't ready people, we're actually just revisiting last year's succession plan, and say, well, who left right. And so, who can we cross off the list that holds.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): That brings up so many questions. So firstly, then, I think that the process part, like you say, is important.

There's a couple of areas we can delve into in a bit more detail. But let’s take the one at a time. Do you feel if we're talking about retirement to people, progressing towards a lot of stages that carriers has been such a focus in recent years across the manufacturing sector about bringing in new skills. You know the digital transformation piece to making yourself a twenty-first century employer as manufacturing can be a little bit of an archaic industry.

Do you feel that slightly detracts from the succession planning conversation and actually the conversation about retaining skills that are there already are really important versus bringing in the skills the sector needs?

Courtney: It's an excellent question, Dave. I think it's a combination there of our world. Manufacturing doesn’t change overnight.

But it is changing, and our ability to expose our leaders to new skill sets, new practices, new ways of thinking is really important. So, there are people that opportunity for that exposure.

Courtney: Sometimes you will find individuals who actually self-select out

They're not interested in skill building and learning new. They've been super successful, you know, executing against what they brought to the table. And so, it's scary to do that pivot, and to step into an area where actually you're learning fresh from the ground. And you don't know if you'll be successful.

Courtney: So, I think helping people on that path is really important and knowing as an organization. When do you need to pivot? When is the point at which you can invest, and you can take the time to skill, build. And when do you need to insert fresh thinking or a different person, so that you can bring them along together or do a replacement right? And I think, as an organization, it just depends on where you're at, and the time that you have in order to really invest in in in one or the other.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): We talk about manufacturing then generally, and I am generalising, but it has traditionally been a sector of lower turnover than others.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): So the number of manufacturing or engineering companies who have people with them for 20 or 30 years. The same business is so much higher than it is elsewhere, and I think the industries haven't done it very, very quickly to deal with the fact that that just doesn't happen anymore, or at least it's becoming less common.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): So on the subject of succession planning internally, but people who want to move on in their career, whether they do that internally or externally. Quite often we might see a senior position come to us as a recruitment company and it's been open for 6 months. You go we've got someone, you know, interim in the position. Who is on the team already, saying, okay.

Is everything going great. Why are they getting the job?

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): And people are used to being asked those questions. If someone left 6 months ago and the team still running perfectly you need to promote rather than hire externally so how do you manage that interna Talk about career goals, and is it about lining business plans with individual career goals. Or how do you actually do that in practice?

Courtney: I don't know that there's a right answer. Or if someone has the right answer. I think a couple of different things.

Courtney: What we try to coach our managers on is every time you have a vacancy, tt's an opportunity for a redesign. Right. Don't immediately go to refill that position as a replacement like a one to one replacement.

Courtney: Look within the team, because arguably there are strengths, and there are great capabilities in the team that you can flex, and you can redesign, you know. Maybe give them a little bit of an exposure of a different product set. Or if they're a sustaining engineer, can they work on different items to really allow creativity, and perhaps a little bit of interest and exposure for that person, because they get to learn something new while also exercising their strengths.

Courtney: So my first piece is, even though it's easy to put an interim kind of in charge. Look across the team to figure out what's the redesign? And what's possible so that you can take advantage of the skills that have been growing, and you might not be aware of right, because sometimes people are blocked in. Just don't see their capabilities.

Courtney: The other piece of putting somebody in interim and doing the search. We're all guilty of this. Let's make sure that we don't set the person up to fail.

So when we put them in that internal role, did they know it's interim? Or did they think this is a temporary job, and maybe I can win it? So, allowing for that transparency of - here's the 3 things you don't have, and why we're searching outside for.

Courtney: Or listen. We don't know enough about you. So, you do have an opportunity to win this opportunity. I think we as organizations we owe it to our people for that level of transparency.

Courtney: The other piece is maybe it's a budgeting game, so maybe they leave the role open for a period of time, because for whatever reason they just have to play the budgeting game, and so, therefore they allow an interim leader. They hold off on the big salary.

They're stretching people and there's a downside to that because oftentimes organizations we don't put the stipend on the interim later, and I think we owe it to those people because we're asking them to do more. We're asking them to step into a role that they didn't do previously, and I don't know. Did we ask them to take their current job with them right and bring it with them?

Courtney: I think we need to appropriately reward, and from a stipend perspective. I think everybody understands what a secondment is, but you give it, and then you take it away right so it's for an interim amount of time to reward, and sent the individual for that that interim time that they're in that position.

Courtney: I think it is more, maybe more challenging. Do we know enough about the people that we put in the roles?

We may be reticent to take a risk.

Courtney: I would argue that as organizations were so much better off investing in our own people, they know our, they know our business. They know our culture. They know the people. They have a leg up on anybody that comes from the outside, and outsiders gotta spend that first 90 days, no matter what role you're in, can I spend that first 90 days learning everything, and you're looking for quick wins.

Courtney: And it's harder to come from the outside. So, I'm a big proponent of let's look within our organizations. Let's set them up appropriately. Let's pay them appropriately, transparency, and then, if something changes along the way which it always does. Just revisit those conversations, and is it the opportunity for the person to win the role permanently, or is it, hey – you've been in the role for 90 days. Thank you. You're doing a fantastic job keeping the lights on. Let's use the appropriate language. But here's what we need, and her’s the person that we're searching for.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yeah. transparency is, I think, important. And I wonder if anyone's done any research on this. But I do wonder if you know there's an internal candidate or 2 up for a position that's gone externally, but who are keeping the lights on, as you say, for the meantime come up against 4 external candidates, one of which gets the role. Yes, how long does the internal candidate stick around after that?

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): How valued or undervalued do they feel? I don't know, and I'm sure it's one of those where case by case scenario. But I wonder if there's any data on it.

Courtney: Yeah. Well, and Dave, I've been in this position myself, right? We're on the external coming in, and there have been internals that have raised their hand, and they wanted the opportunity. And it's worked out positively in one instance, and not so great in another instance, where the person stayed for probably 9 months, and I was so thankful that they stayed because of their knowledge because of their continuity. They allowed me to onboard and get my feet wet, and then they said, hey, I wanted your job, and so I'm going to look externally, but eyes wide open. I'll give you plenty of time to search for a replacement, that fabulous on the other side.

Courtney: I have individuals who I've worked with previously, where I'm the outside. They come in, and they're like they just look at you. Hmm. What do you have that I don't have, and it's about building relationship and leveraging the heck out of their strengths, and we are only successful as successful as the team around us. And there's so much success to go around

Courtney: right. And so it's, taking and propping people up, so that they have a platform to execute and be autonomous, and to leverage their strengths and offer great capabilities within the business, and at the same time as a senior leader or any leader regardless of your level. It's how do you leverage the combined capabilities of the team?

Courtney: Some people are really good at organizational discipline and execution.

Courtney: Other people are really good at the creative and the communication, and so building that team to leverage each other and to show each other up, so that you really are comprehensive, and you have a better offering and a better capability across the team, I think, is really important.

Courtney: But yes, if you find stats, I'll be really curious.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): But I mean I think it's the most important thing you know. The idea of filling your team with a variety of skill sets, and that's important for building diversity too. But that's a whole other topic. So let's go back to the retention side of things a little bit, and drawing myself back to my list of questions

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): We talk about high performance, and these are like clever people or high potential people as well that they are going to be gunning for that role when you know the director or the VP whether they are 100% ready for it, whether they know they are not quite yet. They're going to want to understand how do I do that? So how do you assess for that that risk?

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): And this is something you brought up when we first spoke. The idea that you know these situations are going to arise, so you need to be able to plot ahead. So assessing for that risk seems like quite a transient difficult thing to pin down. So how do you recommend people go about that?

Courtney: Well, it's interesting. What I'd say is depending on the role. There's certain experiences and competencies that are the are the must have for the wrong right? And then you figure out tier 2. What's the nice to have, but they can learn it on the job, or there's enough team members that surround them that make up for that deficit.

Courtney: So I think being really crisp and clear on what that criterion experiences look like is essential. And then, being consistent.

Courtney: A lot of times candidates come across the table that are unique from others that they're put up against, and we may gravitate. Or some may gravitate towards those individuals because they're different. But why do you go back to the same set of criteria right?

So what is it that maybe the possibility? But what if your bet is wrong, right, and you go for something that's off script, and you get it wrong. You're putting a business at risk. So I think, being really crisp and clear, coming back to you. Know. What are you grading against? How do you calibrate? How do you ensure that really clear communication? Because it's not? Only you know internal the talent review of what are their strengths, and how do we help them get even better?

Courtney: It's also knowing it at any given time. How do we make sure that we have alignment to that? And if there's one individual who has a dissenting opinion it's gonna be based in fact.

So, what are the examples? And is it more than just anecdotal? It can't be a one or a 2 time thing. It's got to be a repetitive set of behaviors that gets in the way, and then we have to figure out - would that prevent the person from actually being successful in role? Is it coachable? Is it something they can post it, note to head and remind themselves never to do again. Or is it hard wiring? And it's kind of impact their success?

Courtney: Yeah, because nobody wants to walk into a role and not be successful. We owe it to our people to set them up really well. We want them to succeed. We need them to succeed. So it's incumbent on us to do our homework.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yeah, that's really interesting, because whether it's hiring internally or promoting internally or hiring externally, we’re huge advocates of a scorecard.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Let's build it in reality, and actually look at the nice to have and the must have. You know what's a bonus and all that works just the same when you are building a town plan, or you understand who's next on the list moving up that step.

Because if you don't know what that is, everything’s not going to add up.

Courtney: And so take that job spec, the experiences and what we're looking for, and then have the leader go one step further. How are you going to hold them accountable? What are the goals that they need to deliver.

Courtney: The skills and the experiences actually line up, because if there's a bunch of influencing and they don't have direct authority. How are you going to tease out those skills, and have they actually demonstrated those competencies before? So, I think the goals are equally as important when you're building that spec.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yeah, I 100% agree. When it comes to succession planning, then it feels like you're advocating as much transparency as possible. Let's just say we're talking about an engineering team, you know they've got their engineering manager above them and you know that person is getting later in their carer. And maybe some of the more senior members of the team have been there longer than 10 years. Are they already thinking about those things?

And is the business already talking about them as well.

Courtney: The pros and cons are transparency. So this is the one thing I don't know that you or I said out loud.

Do you want to know that you're a successor? So it's like it's a wonderful opportunity to know that you’re seen as value to the organisation. You have tremendous output and that affects the bottom line results.

Courtney: If you're slated to be a successor, and you know, and then you don't get the job, it’s really deeply unmotivating, and you get disenfranchised to such a point.

Now your resume is on the street, and you know somebody is working with you to find their next opportunity. I think we, as employers, we can't promise positions right? We don't know what's going to happen, and businesses change right, and they evolve over time. I think it is important to know why we value people and what opportunities and experiences we believe that they should be exposed to, to enrich their career, so they have more opportunities. It's a delicate dance and a delicate balance. But we never want to demotivate or disenfranchise somebody.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): like you say it's a tricky balance, but I suppose it's the difference between actively telling someone, by the way, we're lining you up for this versus making sure the whole team feels that the strengths they have that aligned to what the business needs. I suppose, because they're never going to be 100% match. Let's say that's really interesting, and I suppose the other side of that is he chances are those same people are probably already being approached by people like us. So, as a business, you, you've also got to be aware of that.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): You don't necessarily want to say so when you are who we see as a successor to this director in this Vp.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Then other people do as well.

Courtney: Correct? Yes, well, and I think this is this is always the as an internal. You want to provide accolades and praise of your people. And then we talk about social media, and we all do this right.

Do we actually share those praises on social media? So, the rest of the world actually knows how good you are right, because the recruiters like oh, wow!

Courtney: We still do it. But it is then all about the culture and the continuity, and why this is the best place for the individual to stay and to grow their career. And so, you've got to have really good leadership.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): You have to have pieces that tie from a cultural artifact perspective. Tie the individual to the team that love their team. They've got to love their job in order to not take your phone call.

Courtney: I wish I wish there was a magic formula for that, because everybody's an individual, a human being, and we're all different. How we're motivated in any given moment, a little bit different. Definitely. So one final question before we tie things off then.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): And this may be something that is almost impossible to answer. But a lot of this is as it is easier and harder, depending on the size of your organization.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Yes, so if you are a 100 people company. It's harder because you have less resource, but it's easier because you probably know your people better as you're growing in the businesses that you've been part of that that have thousands, if not tens, of thousands of people, that the connection becomes much more difficult. You don't have that personal connection to the 1,000 engineers you've got on your short floor. How does that work in a company of that size?

Courtney: So what I will say is what works as a small organization, you just have to figure out how to scale. So the the benefit of small to your point. You know your people really, really well. But there's a finite number of people to move controls. When you're larger you have to really build process so that you have line of sight to. There are 10 individuals in that business unit who have these transferable skills.

Courtney: And you have to have that connection internally, so that any time there's a vacancy or any time there's a planned organizational change. You can look within your company first before you pivot to the outside, and that takes rigor, and that is hard. If you don't have some sort of tool or platform in order to share across the Hr. Teams or the business teams and exposure points.

So we, as we as companies, we have to do a better job of exposing talent, cross business and cross function, so that it's not. Hey. You should meet John over at Xyz actually you've met John because he presented something at some cross Functional X, and you're like Oh, wait, wait! Was that the guy who talked about X?
Courtney: And there's a little bit of exposure already? So, it takes some of the fear away. But I think that rigor from a scale perspective we all could do better jobs of to ensure that we can hire from within before we pivot to the outside.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): No, it makes sense. Then you get the whole idea of internal competition. But what if that business you didn't want you to take their best people, but that's the subject for another day.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Compliment! It should be a compliment to that business leader that we want their people. Oh, absolutely. But then they've got to replace them so they might still someone back from you. And I think if you've got the processes, if you've got the consistency, then what sounds quite challenging and quite hard to pin down becomes that little bit, you know, easier. So everything you've said makes complete sense.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): We like to finish off with something maybe a little bit more nostalgic by asking all of our guests let's go back, however many years I won't try to guess. I'd say if you were starting out again, and it's especially interesting for someone like you of who's shifted functions, you know, several times.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): What 2 or 3 pieces of advice would you give yourself a point of beginning your career? These could be huge but it could just be a little things that actually think about years later and go I should have to put it that way.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Oh, that oh, such a good question giving myself.

It's horrible isn't it because it just starts making you think and go. Why, didn't I do it that way?

Courtney: You know, when I tell others right, and I wish someone had told me this.

Courtney: There is so much success to go around and you just have to figure out what that looks like. So to be part of a team, or to work on a project and not be the lead, but to carve out your piece and to demonstrate strength and to have a win.

Courtney: You don't necessarily have to own it, but just to be part of it, it allows you to gain that experience and demonstrate that success.

And so I wish someone had told me that earlier, because I think in my career I thought we have to own it. You have to own the process, for you have to be in a position where you're the decision maker, and that's not true.

Courtney: And so that's the first piece of advice. I would say lots of success to go around. The second piece is, climb the rock wall and go sideways and gain those experiences. The jobs that we're going to have 20 years from now are not what we have today, you know. I don't know 40% of them will be different.

Courtney: So to have experiences and competencies that you're building in different environments and in different types of roles make you so powerful.

Courtney: And you can leverage that objectivity of hey? No, I was running this particular project, and these were the confines, and this was the team, and it was so different from being in a different industry, or a different side of the business, where I was still running projects, but in a completely different vertical, or with completely different suppliers and customers, I would say, absolutely zigzag, and take those experiences.

Courtney: They're fun right because you get to reinvent yourself a little bit, but you also from a career perspective. It's what a wonderful resume, and what a wonderful set of experiences to set you up to do more than just one job.

Courtney: And I think that's the second piece of advice, and I'm going to keep it just to those 2. I think that second one in particular is great. I mean, we're seeing people spending less time in roles. It's becoming more acceptable you know, and hiring managers are less concerned about what they used to call job hopping So take advantage of that, because you know, the hiring managers in the future don't feel like anybody about it as much as people seem to. I'm. Curious. What is the now average time somebody spends in a role?

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): Good question. I did some research on this last year, and it's gone from 5 to 10 years to as little as 2 and a half to 3.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): It depends where you look varies by industry, that is, by geography. You know the manufacturing sector is still slightly longer.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): I'm starting to go off on one. Now I'm off on one on this, but it's subtly starting to become less of a negative.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): People are spending a little bit less time with the same company as they did, you know, even 10 years ago. And that is a huge thing, I suppose, for the succession planning, because you need to hire someone in the knowledge that they're not going to be there in 10 years. If they are, you've got very, very lucky.

Courtney: Thank you for your time it's been really interesting, and this is something that comes up a lot with us as we are a recruitment business so we talk about hiring people all the time. But hiring within and promoting, we see retention as the other side of the same coin.

So they are so linked to a company with a strong retention and succession plan in place, is also going to hire the most people externally when they need to do that. So everything you've said I'm sure people are going to get a huge value from.

Dave Sweeney (He/Him): So yeah, if anyone does want to ask you more questions. They should be reaching you, you quite happy for all those things to come through LinkedIn?

Courtney: But I thank you for your time. Have a good rest of your day, and yeah, we'll hear from you again soon up, sure.

Courtney: Okay, outstanding. Thanks Day for the opportunity. Thank you, bye, bye.